April 27, 2005

  • "Hannah! Hannah! HANNAH! I'm not going to tell you again!"


    Oh, yes you are. I've only heard that five times now, and I know you are going to say it again in about 3 minutes, tops. I shudder to think how often Hannah has heard it.


    It is none of my business how customers bring up their children. My concern in this kind of situation is only to try to protect the stock, keep the kids from getting hurt in any way that could lead to a lawsuit, and hope that the other customers are not run off by it.


    But it does make me think about childrearing.


    I am not the strict one in my household. My husband's childrearing philosophy is remeniscent of that of Yul Brynner in The King and I (a favorite movie in our household, where everyone laughs and says it is just like Daddy). Early in our engagement, I was reading a bedtime story to a group of his nephews and nieces. Their parents did not read English, they owned no books, and it might well have been the first bedtime story they had ever experienced. My husband-to-be -- their 23 year old uncle -- came in and told them to go to bed, and they instantly got up and left.


    I was astonished. This is not a level of obedience that we expect in America. In fact, I wouldn't even want it. I would have expected polite negotiation, and I always accept that from my own children. My husband -- in common with other immigrants -- despairs of his American children. When he told our 20 year old daughter that she had to finish college before she could get married, he expected her to obey him. She said she would do so, in fact, but her fiance (who had been transferred to South Carolina) was able to change her mind. I continued preparing for the wedding.


    Do you suppose that American ex-pats in Asia despair of the excessive obedience of their children?


    I was brought up to obey my parents, and to behave in public, and I brought my children up to do the same, by American standards. Different people have different ideas of appropriateness. When we have customers whose children are completely unfettered by convention, I respect that parenting philosophy.


    But the ones who constantly tell their children to do this or that and are ignored are making an error. There ought to be some difference in what happens when you are good and what happens when you are not. Otherwise, there is really no way for the child to know what constitutes "good." "If you do that again, we'll leave," has no effect when the child knows from experience that they will not leave. It's just nagging. In the world at large, there are different results for different kinds of behavior -- not just from people, but from the law, our bodies, animals, and everything else except perhaps the weather. Shielding children from that truth by surrounding them with insincere nagging just makes the discovery more painful when it does take place.


    It has always seemed to me that the so-called "terrible twos" are about this. The two-year-old has just developed enough language to get what he or she wants on a fairly reliable basis. You say "cookie" and someone gives you a cookie. You say "up" and someone picks you up. It is way more effective than crying ever was -- crying just got random results, but talking gives you enormous power. They must feel like Moses parting the Red Sea.


    Almost immediately, however, they discover that it is not complete power. Sometimes you don't get a cookie. Sometimes no one feels like picking you up. Sometimes you refuse to go to bed and they put you there anyway. No wonder they get cross.


    My own theory is that those who learn the limits of their power quickly and consistently don't end up being terrible at all. Those who learn that talking won't always get you what you want, but that screaming often will, or that saying "cookie" many, many times, perhaps in combination with a tantrum, will get you that cookie -- they are the terrible ones.


    But I could be wrong about that. I also believed that good parents did not have trouble with their teenagers, until I had some of my own. I was wrong about that, I think. Now I subscribe to The Empress's views on teens: your job is to keep them alive till they are 18. And look forward, during those months or possibly years of difficulty, to their reemergence as wonderful young adults.


    The little ones, though, would be better served by a clear and quick response. Our eldest once begged for something in a store, and my husband immediately picked her up and took her home. I thought he was over-reacting at the time. She wasn't pulling things off the shelves or screaming, just doing that "please? please?" thing you so often hear. But he was right. She never did it again, so she never got in trouble for it again, and we were able to take her everywhere without stress or unpleasantness. He didn't get angry with her, either, or nag her. He just removed her from the situation. As the kids grew up, we had the ritual of stopping before entering a place and reminding them of the rules for whatever kind of place we were in. By the time they started school, they had a great deal of confidence in many situations. This seems kinder than constant public reprimands.


    The T-shirt? Oh, I frogged the two inches. I won't show you pictures again till I get back to where I was, though. Too depressing.

Comments (7)

  • Not trying to get too personal, but how is your daughter's relationship with her father? Does she feel she can be open with him and talk to him about things?

  • You husband sounds very capable with the children. Mine is the 'easy' one or like myself, patient, patient, patient SNAP!! This is not a good quality to have. I used to teach preschool before I had children and I was full of things I wouldn't do with my own children, but I find that I'm just like alot of other people when it comes to certain things. Filled with good intentions, but not great with consistency.

  • F-mom, it's all so weird.

    i feel like i was brought up well, but i'm finding certain things out:

    I was trained to not ask for certain things. Now I don't know what I want most of the time.

    I was trained to be polite. That meant being quiet and submissive. Now I've begun to be aggressive in my social interactions, and I seem to scare people off occasionally.

    And about "nagging": there's an opposite end of the spectrum. instead of chiding, there's empty positive reinforcement. I've grown up learning to tell myself "life is good" or "everything's ok." This isn't bad; saying these things can pump you up, make you happy just by themselves. But when there is no thought behind them, when you say them to reinforce something that isn't there, when you use them to lie to yourself, they are dangerous.

    It's what I was taught to do, specifically by my mom: laugh and smile and be nice. Now when I talk to my mom on the phone she displays nervous energy, nonsensically inserting "I love you"s and "oh honey"s into our monotonous conversations. It's devastating to realize how distant I am from her, and how infrequently that gap is crossed.

    Oh FM, I'm not trying to tell you what to do with parenting, not at all. But keep these cautions. The nice/quiet/smiling ones are the hardest to uncover. They come off as genuine because they think they are, but their emotional depth has yet to be explored.

  • My kids get a "I'm not going to tell you again" once, when/if I have to "tell you again" it means we're leaving. My kids are pretty well behaved..they're lively (especially the girl child), but for the most part I can take them anywhere. Really, I think I'm pretty lucky.

  • In a lot of Asian societies influenced by Confucianism (which is practically every Asian country), obedience is a big deal. I remember as a child getting punished rather severely for disobedience, even if it was unintentional. When they say jump, you say how high kinda thing, and you better be on your toes to be able to receive and obey their commands at any moment's notice. After a certain age, this practice ended with a very sharp change. However, I think the discipline instilled in me was very valuable. This lasted only until I was between 8 and 10 years old, when my parents reverted to a far more lax and loose parenting style that involved little punishment (because we knew not to transgress) and plenty of freedom to do as we pleased so long as we kept up in our academics and didn't do anything socially reprehensible. Of course, this is a horrible description of my parents' parenting style, so I'm reluctant to say that it is the definitive description of it, in case it doesn't do them justice (my sister and I obviously turned out to be good kids).  Keep it copasetic. Peace.

  • Interesting. I'm not Asian but my parents' parenting style sounds similar to the Asian. We never threw tantrums, didn't swear, didn't backchat our parents (until we hit midteens), weren't allowed to leave the table without excusing ourselves, would say 'pardon me' if we needed something repeated (not "What?"). And yet, within boundaries dictated by safety and good manners we were free to do whatever we wished. We had no chores, (we asked for something to do if we wanted some pocket money), no curfew, no questions about where we were going and how long we'd be gone for. As young teens we were expected to let our parents know if we were going to be home late but as our parents had to follow that rule as well we had no problem with it (they actually broke that rule more than we did - and they got told off for it if they did) I think that you need to teach kids where the boundaries are in their first 7 or 8 years, after that it's too late and you're likely to end up with adolescent monsters and/or rebellious untrustworthy teens. Everytime I see a mother or father (more usually the mother) laughing at her toddler son or daughter's 'cute' behaviour (kid being cheeky or pushing around other children or adults) I shudder - it's not so cute when they are 6 or 7 or 12 and still behaving in that manner.

    Re Autumn colours. The leaves on deciduous trees in NZ tend to turn colour rather suddenly (or at least it seems that way to me) and not all at once. By the time most of the leaves have turned the winds come along and the leaves are gone, we're left with bare trees. Island seasons are less settled and predictable than continental seasons and we don't have nice clean divisions between them. So, although Autumn leaves are one of my favourite scents I don't get to smell it very often or for very long. Those photos were taken 3 days ago and already a lot of those leaves have disappeared.

  • I think that Sighkey and the Water Jar expressed better than I did the way that early strict training leads to later freedom -- because the kids know the boundaries. And I think that both Andrew and the Water Jar expressed interesting points about the Asian childrearing customs from the kids' point of view. I'm going to respond to everyone, of course, but I wanted to make those comments for later readers Thank you all for your very interesting responses!

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